On the schedule for this week: Why do so many queer folk love playing Dungeons & Dragons? How do you navigate the burden of educating others on changing norms? And what exactly does it mean to identify as “masculine fertile”? All that and more as Jasmin and Liv talk to Ally Beardsley!
On the schedule for this week: Why do so many queer folk love playing Dungeons & Dragons? How do you navigate the burden of educating others on changing norms? And what exactly does it mean to identify as “masculine fertile”? All that and more as Jasmin and Liv talk to Ally Beardsley!
Citations
- The Philosophy of Ikigai: 3 Examples About Finding Purpose by Jeffrey Gaines for Positive Psychology
- Queer players find more than a game in Dungeons & Dragons - they find a safe space by Isabelle Lichtenstein for Dicebreaker
Bio
Ally Beardsley is a trans person from Temecula, CA who spent two decades begging God to be straight while surrounded by dirt biking Christian hotties. They’re best known as a long time CollegeHumor cast member and writer and player on Dimension20, the D&D anthology series on Dropout for CollegeHumor.
Credits
- Hosts: Jasmin Savoy Brown and Liv Hewson
- Producer: Eric Silver
- Co-Producers: Jasmin Savoy Brown and Liv Hewson
- Editor, Engineer & Sound Designer: Mischa Stanton
- Executive Producer: Amanda McLoughlin
- Researcher: Gina Cherelus
- Created by: Jasmin Savoy Brown
- Produced by: Multitude & Netflix
Find Us Online
- Twitter: @Most
- Instagram: @Most
[Intro Theme Music]
Liv: Welcome to The Homo Schedule, where we're corrupting your children into celebrating their wins and being proud of the journey. I'm Liv, and I'm in charge of designing gender-neutral button ups that fit over everybody’s god damn hips!
Jasmin: And I'm Jasmin, the one who schedules all your finger tattoo appointments. [Laughs] Let’s review the minutes from last week’s meeting. What’s going on with you?
Liv: Yeah, I’m good, I’m good. I have been having this thing recently where like, I’ve been quite settled in general over the last few months I would say, maybe the last year. And when I say settled, I mean like, I’m at a place in my life now where I’m in general more confident, more sure of myself, more at peace with who I am, like, feeling a bit more steady.
Jasmin: Huge!
Liv: It has been really huge, it has been really nice; But a few times in the last couple of months that feeling has been met by some pretty steep anxiety spikes that feel old, that feel like kind of old patterns of mine coming up that I’m now needing to like meet and get to know, and process again in this new headspace. Does that make sense?
Jasmin: Totally, I feel like that’s part of growth. It’s like, three steps forward one step back, two steps forward one step back, like reprogramming our brains.
Liv: Yeah. So I’ve been feeling a bit of that lately, where it’s like, where I’m, y’know, for months and months I was like “Wow, I think I’m really fucking getting somewhere,” then, “Oh god, Christ! Oh my god! What is this?”
Jasmin: But that doesn’t mean you’re not - I think it means you are -
Liv: Yeah, yeah.
Jasmin: Like that fact that those things are popping up is proof that you’re growing, because then when you see it you’re going “Oh, you again,” rather than like, it just happening.
Liv: That’s exactly how it feels. But it’s been interesting to like, I feel like I’m at a vantage point where I’m able to see it all, instead of, you know -
Jasmin: Huuuge!
Liv: Being at the mercy of it all.Which is cool.
Jasmin: Can I be so annoying and recommend yoga?
Liv: [Laughs] Yeah, sure, I like yoga.
Jasmin: Because, look, I used to hate yoga but a couple weeks ago was having a ton of anxiety and panic attacks, and a friend of mine was like, “I dare you to cancel that big thing you planned that you feel like you have to do, and instead do yoga every day for seven days.” And I was like, “I hate yoga,” and she was like, “I know, but just like, it’s a dare.” And I did, I canceled the thing, I did the yoga every day instead, and it’s low-key, like, medium-key changing my life. When I feel that panic, that stress, I just, I turn on maybe even like a ten minute yoga practice, something really short, that - it’s still new so it’s something that I’m learning, so my mind has something to focus on, instead of like spinning out, and I’m also regulating my breath and my body at the same time. And maybe the, the thing doesn’t go away, but it gets a lot smaller.
Liv: That's really interesting. Why did you hate yoga?
Jasmin: Because I had to sit still -
Liv: Right.
Jasmin: And I wasn’t good at it, you know? I like, like when I did it forever ago I just did a drop-in class here and there, I couldn’t hold any of those poses, that shit’s hard! I still can’t. And I didn’t have the humility to be ok with that.
Liv: Ooh, that’s, that’s interesting. Yeah.
Jasmin: Mmhm. And I have to sit still for too long.
Liv: Yeah, hah [Laughs]
Jasmin: I know, as soon as that came out of my mouth I was like, “Well, that was kind of profoundly revealing, let’s move aloooong.”
[Both laugh.]
Liv: I like yoga. I like a mix, I like still, gentle stuff, but I also sometimes like a really frenetic, intense physical release is helpful for me too, like running, or dancing, or punching a pillow, or like yelling into something, you know, sometimes the harsh jerks me into a different state as successfully as the gentle.
Jasmin: Totally. And I want to add for anyone listening who has, I don’t know, problems with exercise: there is no, like, right or wrong way to exercise.
Liv: No, of course not. And sometimes I think it’s a bit of a trick we play on ourselves, to be like “Oh, this doesn’t count because it’s not strenuous,” when really -
Jasmin: Yeah.
Liv: - we’re using ‘strenuous’ as a stand-in for ‘punishing.’
[Jasmin laughs]
Liv: You know it’s, “this doesn’t count because it’s not hard, because I’m not miserable,” like -
Jasmin: “It’s not hurting me, so -” [Laughs] Yeah.
Liv: You know, our relationship with exercise should be, like, nice. [Laughs]
Jasmin: Yeah. Well, then we could apply that to life, if everything is everything- by the way, this is a philosophy podcast -
[Liv Laughs]
Jasmin: - If everything is everything, if I have to punish myself in my exercise, does that mean I have to punish myself in a relationship for it to be successful?
Liv: Mmm?
Jasmin: Well I’ve been there! Anyway, yeah, it’s about [Laughs] taking care of your mind and body. We’re getting quite philosophical, I love it.
Liv: Yeah, it’s, you know, a thing, life is a - I don’t know. Life isn’t supposed to be anything. Things can be good.
Jasmin: Yeah!
Liv: Like it doesn’t have to hurt. Life is short, you know? Life is short. Well on that note... [Laughs]
Jasmin: Ok Liv, what’s on the schedule for today?
Liv: Oh my god, on the schedule for today is us talking to Ally Beardsley.
Jasmin: Ally Beardsley is a trans comedian and writer from Temecula, California who spent two decades begging god to be straight while surrounded by dirt biking hotties - that's what Ally loves to say. Here's also some facts about them: They are a long-time CollegeHumor cast member and writer. I'd say they're best known for Dimension 20, the D&D anthology series on Dropout for CollegeHumor. Okay. I'm just going to tell the truth here. So Ally and I met on - dun dun dun - [Singsong] Raya. That's -
Liv: Ah!
Jasmin: - actually where I've met like a handful of, of good friends! And, you know the queer community, we all date and then become buddies.
Liv: This is like a whole conversation in and of itself, is like the dating app to friendship pipeline.
Jasmin: Oh, I'm so grateful. So many people shit on Raya - I love Raya. Raya has given me a handful of really good friends, and Ally is one of those people.And the, the transition from dating app to friendship was beautiful and seamless and lovely and communicative.
Liv: I think about that a lot, as someone whom dating apps scare the shit out of, and I've never been anywhere near one.
Jasmin: Wait, what!? Why?
Liv: Yeah, we can talk about that another time.
Jasmin: I'm going to send you a friend pass to Raya.
[Liv groans, then screams. Jasmin laughs.]
Liv: Well, if I get to make friends like Ally, that, that might actually be worth doing.
Jasmin: Yeah! Watch you and Ally match on Raya.
Liv: Honestly? Would love that. Um, so I had never, I had never met Ally before recording this podcast episode, and talking to them was an absolute dream, and I think this episode is going to be a real treat. Let's enter it into the record!
[Transition theme music]
Jasmin: [Singing to the tune of _The Name Game_] Ally, Ally, Bo Bally, Banana Fano Fovally. Mi My Mo Mally-
Jasmin and Liv:
[Singing] Ally!
[Ally laughs]
Jasmin:
Thank you for coming onto our podcast. How do you identify and what are your pronouns?
Ally:
Oh, great, okay, yes. Umm - I use They/Them, I am non-binary, and I identify with transmasc people, usually. I identify with people who were like really Butch for a long time and now feel like kind of femme.
[All laugh]
Ally:
I identify with anyone just kind of trying to find their equilibrium, I think. Yeah.
Jasmin:
I love that.
Ally:
But yeah, overall, if someone is like, “are you gay?” I'm like, “yes.” So it depends on, you know…
[Liv laughs]
Ally:
Yeah. I just, you know… different people have different language. So sometimes I'm like, “I'm queer identified masc-leaning non-binary” and then sometimes I'm like, “I'm gay!” [Laughs]
Liv:
I so relate to that. Jasmin, how are you identifying this week?
Jasmin:
This week? I identify as anxious and depressed. Just kidding. I'm not kidding.
[Liv and Ally laugh]
Jasmin:
This week I identify as queer, as a queer woman of color. That's how I identify this week. My pronouns are still She/Her. How about you, Liv?
Liv:
My pronouns are They/Them. I'm non-binary. I'm gay. And, uh, I've been, like, enjoying cooking.
Jasmin:
Ooh!
Ally:
Oh!
Jasmin:
What are you cooking?
Liv:
I've been, like, experimenting with some Korean recipes and some Italian stuff, and just kind of like learning to sustain myself living alone. So I think I'm starting to, like, identify as an adult.
Ally:
Yeah!
Jasmin:
Whoaa!
Ally:
A little gochujang, mmm!
Liv:
Yeah, it's delicious.
Ally:
It's so good.
Liv:
Um, Ally, I would love to ask you about something that I read, um, which was you describing yourself as a ‘fertile masculine’ -
Ally:
Yes! [Laughs]
Liv:
- which I cannot get enough of, I love that, talk to me about the fertility of the masculine.
Ally:
Yes. I I.D. heavily as ‘masculine fertile.’ On face value I think people hear this and they're like, “Oh, it's like a Butch person who has, like, hips,” or something. It simply is not. I think it is the spirit of being masculine and also the spirit of being fertile and, like, welcoming [Laughs] and enriching. And there are, like, cis men who are masculine fertile -
Jasmin:
Mmhm.
Ally:
- and there are women who are masculine fertile. There are non-binary people are masculine fertile. But, yeah, I've gotten a lot of interesting feedback on this. Some people are like, “you've ruined my life. My girlfriend only refers to me as masculine fertile now.” And I just want to set the record straight:
only you
can identify
yourself
-
[Liv laughs]
Ally:
- as masculine fertile.
Liv:
It is a mantle you take upon yourself.
Ally:
Yeah! [Laughs]
Liv:
I do want a shirt that says ‘Masculine Fertile’ on it.
Ally:
I mean, same. I mean it's, it’s merch in the making, I would say.
Jasmin:
You should get on that, Ally.
Liv:
I just love, like, incorporating masculinity into, like, nurturing.
Ally:
Yes.
Liv:
And into the act of creation, and like degendering that, I think that's delicious.
Ally:
Yeah! It's definitely something on my trans, uh, transitioning journey that I have felt like, “Oh, my body is betraying me. I have
these
characteristics,” or like, “What does my ideal look like?” And it's just this kind of like stark, un-fertile, dare I say, barren look. And it, yeah, it was just kind of a moment for me of being like, “No, I actually really embrace…” Fertile makes everyone think, like, I'm talking about, like, having a baby, but it is - I'm talking about, you know, like a Fertile Crescent -
Liv:
Yeah, like rich earth.
Ally:
Yeah! It's very like, I’m not… Yeah. I don't know. It's just developing kind of a new masculinity as, like, my ideal.
Jasmin:
Well I'd say, as your friend, I very much see your fertile quality.
Liv:
Yeah! [Laughs]
Jasmin:
Every room you walk into, you light up, you’re great at connecting people -
Ally:
Aww!
Jasmin:
- you’re fun, you make people smile and laugh and feel loved.
Ally:
Wow! Oh my god, Jasmin. Thank you. And I'm also just constantly doing pull-ups like on door frames, so that’s… that's the masculine side! [Laughs]
Liv:
For some of the listeners at home who might be meeting you for the first time, do you want to talk us through what you do?
Ally:
Yeah, definitely. This is very funny to me. So I grew up very religious in a house that was kind of like, “Halloween is evil,” you know what I mean?
Liv:
Mhm.
Ally:
Like “
D&D
? Oh, you're not going to play that.” It just was never like an option for me. And then I do improv at Upright Citizens Brigade, and met a ton of people that way, and someone there was trying to put a
Dungeons & Dragons
crew together of all improvisers and like comedians. So I joined that and then it, like, really was really popular. Like my friend Brennan, who runs all of the
D&D
games is, like, so brilliant and fun. And we really, we were both like philosophy majors. So we both are just kinda like, “well, what do you mean by that?” You know, we're just like pushing back on each other in like a way that's really fun.
Liv:
Philosophy as a bedrock does seem appropriate for tabletop gaming actually.
Ally:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, sooo many comedians, uh, studied philosophy. I feel like -
Liv:
Yeah.
Ally: -
it makes a lot of sense. So yeah, that is like something that became like super, super popular. Like when I meet people now and they're like, “let me add you on Instagram” they're like, “Whoa, why do you have so many followers?” and I'm like, “it's because I play D&D on the internet.” So yeah, it's a show called
Dimension 20
and it's kind of like American Horror Story, in the way where each season is like a whole new world, we're playing completely different characters.
Liv:
An anthology!
Ally:
An anthology, dare I say?
Liv:
That’s cool.
Ally:
Um, so yeah, through that, it's been really important to me to show, uh, queer stories that we don't see very often. And so I think that, that a lot of people have been like drawn to that.
Liv:
Right. And like the experience of shaping a narrative through playing it is like, different to like sitting down and writing it. And especially like having a background in improvisation, and like doing improv and doing D&D it's like there’s this sense of ownership over the stories you're telling that I think is really interesting.
Ally:
Yeah. I think a lot of queer people find their, uh, space to figure themselves out through fantasy.
Liv:
Mmm.
Ally:
I think that that's really common. So there are so many queer people playing D&D.
Liv:
Well see this is the thing, you've started answering your question before we asked it, which was:
[Ally laughs]
Liv:
What's the deal with LGBT people in D&D?
Ally:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. In my opinion, D&D is this game where you're all sitting at a table and you're like, “Here's my character. Here's what they look like.” You get to explain everything about them. And like, no one at the table is going to be like, “you don't look like that.” No one is going to like, put any brakes on you, they're just going to be like, “Yeah, Jason, like you're playing this woman who’s like a single mom,” and like, you know, it's like, it's like friends, like completely just going wild with it. And you can just try on…
Liv:
It's transformative.
Ally:
Yeah.
Liv:
It's another form of theater.
Ally:
Yeah, yeah. For people who are not actors I think that this is like a very fun way to just, like, have snacks with your friends and be like, I don't know, like I, my brother is also gay and he would always choose like the female avatar in any, like, choose-your-player game. And like, I think that's a little dose of what you get with D&D. D&D is like, you choose her and then you get completely expound on every part of her reality.
Jasmin:
I love that because it does feel very theatrical to me, but it's a safe space for people who perhaps aren't comfortable in a black box or on a stage, or even in a class getting up and walking around and acting something out. It's a safer space to do that. And perhaps you even get to go farther with the exploration because it's not scripted.
Ally:
Yeah.
Jasmin:
You have me interested in D&D!
Liv:
I have limited experience with D&D, but I've played games like
Monster Hearts
before, and it is like really cathartic and fun and social and like exploratory.
Ally:
Yes, totally.
Monster Hearts
was very fun. Big fan.
Liv:
It's a good game!
Ally:
Yeah.
Jasmin:
So you said that a lot of queer people have really resonated with you on this game - ‘on this game?’ Is that the right way to say that?
Ally:
Yeah. [Laughs]
Jasmin:
On the line, on the internet game space -
[Ally laughs]
Jasmin:
- and I've seen you interact a lot with your fans online. You're very interactive and very good at engaging people. I want to know more about that, and what it's like interacting with the younger generation of queer people.
Ally:
Mmmm.
Jasmin:
Because I think we have a lot to learn from them, and it seems like you're with them all the time.
Ally:
Yes. [Laughs]
Liv:
Yeah, how do you think about that relationship as like a content creator who's very personally visible.
Ally:
So it's only coming from my own personal leanings. Like, I am a
fan
. Like if someone compiled the list of like random, like, “Let's start with MySpace. Go as far back as you can.” Like, I have sent messages to people that were in movies that I liked. Like I send fan messages -
Liv:
Aww!
Ally:
- when I'm drunk, especially sometimes I'll check my Instagram DMs, and it's like, “I really loved that song, man.” You know?
[Jasmin and Liv laugh]
Ally:
And it's like hopelessly, like completely sincere.
Liv:
You wake up and you're like, “oh God, I DM’ed Pitbull again!”
[Jasmin laughs]
Ally:
Yeah! God, oh no, no. Mr. Worldwide. [Laughs]
Liv:
No! [Laughs]
Ally:
It's only Pitbull. Yeah, definitely. And, um, so I think coming from that point of view… I dunno. It's not weird to me when someone is like, “Hey, I really liked this thing you made.” I, like, that's my dream world, is where someone can be like, “this was really cool.” And I can be like, “whoa, thank you so much. Uh, let's talk about that. Or let's have a conversation.” And then I definitely feel like I grew up in, like, a drought of representation. “Are there any gay people? Is there any differentiation in them, or is it all, like, LOL, middle-aged woman who works at Home Depot, softball, mom on
Will and Grace
…”
Jasmin:
Right.
Ally:
You know, like, “Is there a lesbian in sight?”
Liv:
Which by the way: love her.
Ally:
Which by the way, Rosie O'Donnell, yeah.
[All laugh]
Ally:
Yeah, you know. Not a lot of rep. And so when people reach out to her, like “this really made me think,” or “this was so cool to see,” I'm just like, that's the highest praise. Ever. And I'm just like, thank you so much. That's so cool.
Liv:
It seems like that is reciprocal and that it nourishes you in some way to hear that.
Ally:
Definitely. Yeah. And I think like people have reached out and been like, “I'm starting my own podcast. I'm doing this game.” Like, you know, there've been people that I've been interacting with for like a super long time. And it's less like, “oh, you sent me, like, a DM that was like, I'm a fan.” It's more like, “we are like actual friends now.” And so like, there's one person who based like their
D&D
campaign around this, like, transguy cowboy character that I played in the show, and over quarantine was like, “Hey, can I pay you to just appear in our Zoom and like make my entire party go crazy?” [Laughs]
Jasmin:
How fun!
Liv:
Oh my God, did you do it?
Ally:
Yeah, I absolutely did. I absolutely did.
Liv:
How was it?
Ally:
It was great! Like he clearly set it up, like it was going to be me and everyone was like super confused and he was like, “Yeah, it's Pete from
Dimension 20
.”
[Jasmin laughs.]
Ally:
And then I like muted, you know, like revealed my thing, and it's just me in my room being like, “Hi everyone!” [Laughs]
Liv:
That is gorgeous. What was the experience of that, like, connectivity of coming out and into yourself in the public eye.
Ally:
Oh, yeah. Whooo. I, yeah, it's been really crazy to transition publicly in that way. Um, but also very cool. Cause I think [Laughs] like people just got like a front row seat to what it looks like to be like, “Hey, I'm a girl,” to like, “Dat dat dat dat dat,” you know, on my own little journey.
Jasmin:
Was that by choice or did it just happen to do it all publicly?
Ally:
I mean, I worked at CollegeHumor, and we would make like three sketches a week. So it was just like, constantly filming, and like, trying new clothes out, trying a new hair style. Like, so it's not like I was like posting, like, “Hey, here's an update of how I feel in my gender.” It was just like, we were constantly writing sketches and people would like, I'm like, “Hey, these are my pronouns now,” like, “switch all the sketches to that.” And you can just completely see the trajectory of me finding my non-binaryness.
Liv:
It really speaks to the importance of like an environment where you are comfortable enough to ask for those things and to like, be assertive with those things and to know that you would be heard and respected.
Ally:
Yeah, definitely. It was such an incredible place to work, but everyone was extremely, like… I don't even know if, I mean, I definitely told like the cast that I was working with like super closely like, “oh, I use They/Them now,” and everyone switched. But then like people in the office were just, like using, They/Them all of a sudden. I'm like, “did someone send out like a mass email?”
Jasmin:
Yes, that’s amazing.
Liv:
Well, I don't know about you, but what I've noticed is that, like, the people who do the work of, like, correcting everybody else around you often won't tell you that they're doing that, and it's the sweetest thing. Like this happened to me where like, suddenly someone was like, “oh yeah, like so-and-so has been going around, like correcting everybody.” I'm like, “They have?! Aww, that’s really nice!”
Ally:
That is a huge thing that I would love to talk about. I was -
Liv:
Mhm!
Ally:
- I, I do a lot of volunteer work in LA, and I'm out on like an outreach thing, we do like a lot of houseless, people experiencing homelessness, outreach. And the person that I'm walking around with is like… it's like an anxiety thing. So, she really felt the need to tell me that the main guy I've been interacting with has been using She/Her nonstop, and she corrected him. And I was just like, “oh, like you think you're telling me, like, a sweet story that maybe I would say ‘thank you’ to, but this actually makes me feel so fucking weird to my core.” Like…
Liv:
Yeah. What's uncomfortable to me about that is that it speaks to a need to be thanked.
Ally:
Yes!
Jasmin:
Yeah.
Liv:
Or it's like, “Hey, I took care of that for you.” It's like, “Okay, well, I didn't want, I didn't really actually need to know that.”
Ally:
Exactly. Yeah. This isn't your kind of like, I'm not here to give you a little bit of praise.
Jasmin:
People want points sometimes.
Ally:
Yes. It's soooo points.
Liv:
And it's so day-and-night with the emotional experience of finding out that somebody has been doing that ally work for you, but like not asking for anything in return.
Ally:
Yes, totally.
Jasmin:
Or, you never find out, and that’s ok, because you weren't meant to find out.
Ally:
Yeah. Pronouns are hard because people don't use your pronouns in front of you very often. You know what I mean? Like, unless like, there are a couple of people that don't know each other, so then they have to keep like, referring to you, but like, it's usually the bulk of it is happening when you're not there. So you're just kind of like, “Well, I hope that's going according to plan!”
Liv:
Yeah, God, that is so real. It's like doing a trust fall with everyone, you know.
[Liv and Ally laugh]
Ally:
Yeah. I had an experience, uh, like last weekend where - [Laughs] this is too much of a long story to get into, but there was just a list of like men and women that people were signing in with. And I was on the men’s list. And I went to go sign in and this guy is looking for my name on the women's list, and he's like, “I don't see your name, where is it?” And I was like, “Oh, I'm on the men's.” And instead of being like, “I'm sorry,” he was like, “Thank you.” And just flipped over to the men's found me and moved on.
Jasmin:
Whoa.
Liv:
I
love
that.
Jasmin:
Yeah.
Liv:
That changes everything.
Ally:
That is the response!
Liv:
That really changes everything. Because that… then you don't have to say it's okay.
Ally:
Yes.
Jasmin:
Right.
Liv:
Cause when someone says ‘I'm sorry,’ the natural social response is “It's okay.”
Ally:
And it's not ‘okay’!
Liv:
Yeah, if someone says ‘thank you’ you don't have to say ‘it's okay!’
Ally:
Yeah. It's not like violent and I'm not like “it's not okay!!” You know, like livid. I'm just like, “Hey, we're at a point where like, it's not okay.”
Jasmin:
Yeah.
Ally:
Like, “we're moving past this.”
Jasmin:
Well I think people don't realize that when they say I'm sorry - Like, if, if I'm assuming everyone's coming from a good intention, they don't realize that's making it about them because then
you
are comforting them.
Ally:
Yeah. This has just been a very cool, interesting time to see. I just feel like that kind of like labor of what you're asking for people when you're like, “oh, sorry. And I, uh, like, oh my ignorance.”
Liv:
It is actually a little bit of a pet peeve of mine. When people find out that I'm non-binary and use They/Them pronouns and they're like, “Oh, well, you know, I'm really going to try, but if I get it wrong, just correct me.” I'm like, “Ah, yeah, I mean I will, but um, why don't you really try not to do that!”
Jasmin:
Not get it wrong.
Ally:
Why don't you take out your notes app and write down my Venmo.
[All laugh]
Ally:
And every time I correct you, it's $25… It's definitely hard, I think, with anything non-binary currently, because I'm struggling between - and this is like great for going to therapy, I think, because it's something I work on there - but it's like on one side, I'm like, “Oh, maybe I'm the first non-binary person this person has met.” And so like -
Liv:
Yes.
Ally:
We're doing this work now, and it sucks, but I do have a supportive network and I don't feel like this is going to break me. And then everyone after me, it just gets a little bit easier with this particular person, or system, or set, or group of producers, or sound guys, or whatever. And then the other side is like, “I shouldn't have to do that.”
Liv:
Yeah, I - God, I really, really relate to that.
Ally:
I don't deserve that, you know.
Liv:
That's a tough, tough balance.
Ally:
Yeah.
Liv:
Also it's like, “oh, so I'm never allowed to, like, be annoyed -”
Ally:
Yeah.
Liv:
- or like have a day where I'm like, “I actually don't want to talk about it today.” Like I, you know, I'm never, I can't - your fuse has to be so much longer than everybody else.
Ally:
Yes. It's just a prevailing feeling of knowing the world is not built for you. Like, I was listening to a meditation podcast and she's like, “so if you're a man, like you will feel this here. And if you're a woman you'll feel this here.” And I was just, was like, “How dare you!”
[All laugh]
Ally:
I'm 45 minutes into this meditation podcast, like I'm looking for peace and refuge and you're over here being like “biologically male and female, no non binary option.” Like, ugggh, like, it's awful.
Liv:
Yeah. The feeling that I come up against over and over and I'm like, “Oh, this has nothing to do with me.” Like, I don't know what any of this is.
Ally:
Yeah. You can be like, “Well, this isn't for me.” But then when it's like, you know, food shelter, finding fees, any of that, you're like, “Well, okay. So a lot of things aren't for me, I guess…”
Liv:
What if this
was
for me?
[Ally laughs]
Jasmin:
And as fertile as you are,
[Liv laughs]
Jasmin:
Are making so many beautiful spaces that are for you and that are for people to come after you and I - on a totally different side, being a woman of color - I do similar work where I'm having very hard conversations everywhere I go. And it's really taxing and really hard on me. But then I know that the people that come after me are going to have it easier.
Ally:
Definitely. You absolutely do that. I feel like, yeah.
Liv:
Oh yeah. All the time.
Jasmin:
As do you, so, thank you for that on behalf of everyone. And I'm curious how success ties into all of this. What do you define as success? Because I look at you and I think that's my friend, Ally. Their successful.
Ally:
You mean like in a career?
Jasmin:
It could be anything! Creatively and in career, yeah, what do you define as success and happiness. And do you feel like you're there? Do you feel like you're on your way.
Liv:
Do you think you think about it differently than when you were younger? Like, just where, where's your head at?
Ally:
Oh, I, I like this question. I think I would just push back on the word ‘success.’ I feel like I'm really trying to disentangle from a capitalist perfection or a, like a focus on the future.
Liv:
You’re speaking my language.
Ally:
Yeah. When I think about success, it puts me in a real, like future tripping feeling of like, “will this project go through, will this last longer?” Or I just get very scrambly, but yeah. I mean, there are so many small successes that I definitely feel…
Jasmin:
Small is big.
Ally:
Yeah. It's true. Yeah. I could focus, I think, more on that. But, yeah, I don't know. That's, yeah, this is a very interesting question.
Liv:
How about this - where, where do you find your fulfillment?
Ally:
Oh yeah, this was great. Have you guys heard of ikigai?
Jasmin:
No.
Ally:
It is like a Japanese finding your purpose in life. Kind of like charts.
Liv:
Ikigai? Hmm.
Ally:
It’s kind of like a Venn diagram, but there are two of them. So there are four circles that interlap and it's, you're supposed to find this middle part that has to do with all of them. And it's what you're good at, what you can be paid for, what the world needs, and what makes you happy.
Liv:
Oooh.
Ally:
And the idea is that you find this kind of like point or zone to be in.
Jasmin:
What the world needs. I love that that's in there.
Liv:
Sexy, I like that.
Ally:
Yeah. It's very realistic, too. I think, like, what you can make money with is treated as kind of like evil and then that's coming from such a place of comfort. I feel like when people are like, “Oh, you want to make money?” And it's, “Oh, you sound really comfortable.” Like, “you sound like you don't have student loans and you don't have like family that needs things-”
Liv:
Sounds maybe like you don't need to make money. [Laughs]
Ally:
Yeah! [Laughs] Yeah. You sound like, money, uh, it doesn't mean a lot to you.
Liv:
But also, I love that in this framework it's treated as just a component, and one of several, yeah.
Ally:
Yeah. A balance.
Liv:
Yeah. Not a priority or something to punish yourself with.
Jasmin:
Well, and I love what you originally said about trying to detach from the word success. That's very much a theme of my life at the moment is untangling from capitalistic ideas from the patriarchy, from white supremacy. Because I've been asking myself why we made up debt. We made up credit.
[Liv laughs]
Jasmin:
We made up all of this, it doesn't exist. Human beings really were meant to just laugh and smile and swim and sit by the fire and forage -
Liv:
Tell each other stories.
Jasmin:
And eat. So I'm working to be more comfortable having a day where I wake up, go on a walk, read my book, maybe send a few emails -
Liv:
Baby steps.
Jasmin:
And then that's it. Instead of waking up going, “I have two free hours, time to launch a business!” Like, no, go on a walk girl. You’re fine.
[All laugh]
Jasmin:
So for me, success and happiness, I'm also redefining it. And at this moment, what it looks like is being present and that can manifest in different ways. On some days what will bring me joy and help me be present is figuring out what the next project is I want to do, or I get great success from doing, I mean, great happiness -
[Liv laughs]
Jasmin:
From doing this podcast. That feels like a success, but so does playing with my cat for an hour. And I do mean my actual cat.
[All laugh]
Ally:
Whoa, hey, still confused…
Jasmin:
Meow.
[All laugh]
Liv:
So you're familiar with Allison Bechdel's Fun Home.
Ally:
Yes, absolutely.
Liv:
Okay. And you are familiar when I say ‘ring of keys’ moment, you know what I'm describing?
Ally:
Okay, yes.
[All laugh]
Liv:
To be young, and to not quite have the framework or language for yourself yet, but to see somebody or something that resonates with you as like a little budding LGBT baby, I call that a ‘ring of keys moment.’ And on this podcast, we like to ask our guests, did you ever have one?
Ally:
So my ‘ring of keys’ moments are very interesting to me now to think about, because it was whenever I would see, like, a really refined or kind of like fancy way to be masc. So I had a gay uncle growing up and I remember that one time he left on accident his like toiletries bag at our house, and he lived, like, a couple hours away, so it was just like, “Oh, we can mail it to him.” We never did. And it was filled with Kiehl's products.
Liv:
Yes!
Ally:
This is not sponsored. I'm simply not a sponsor, but…
[All laugh]
Ally:
True. Call it an altar, if you want, but I had all of those products like on one little table, I would use them every day. We're talking like fourth grade or something like that. And there was like, after shave, there was shaving cream -
Jasmin:
You would put it on.
Ally:
I would put it all on. I would do like a whole, there was like face toner. [Laughs] But I was just using, you know what I mean? Like only using face toner and walking out the door into the hot sun.
Liv:
Yes. I'm here.
Ally:
I'm ready, I'm clean, and I'm fancy.
Liv:
My mom calls that sartorial elegance.
Ally:
Oh my gosh.
Liv:
Like specifically when we’re talking about masculinity and like men doing these things.
Ally:
You know what I mean? I was just kind of like craving, like… My dad was very like, Costco jeans, like, you know, whatever. He's just like, not into that kind of stuff. And then to see like a guy who like, was like, “Oh, I do everything like very intentionally. And this is like a really good product.” [Laughs] Then after that, like a few years later there was a
Queer Eye for the Straight Guy
book, hard cover -
Jasmin:
Yeah.
Liv:
Hard cover.
Ally:
- that I bought at a Ross. [Laughs] At Ross while waiting for four-plus hours for my mom to try on like bras or something, just absolutely being like stuck there. I bought it with my own money and, I mean, this was like huge for me. It like went through how to like, do like interior design when you're just like a straight guy or like -
Liv:
Mmm.
Ally:
- How to do your hair, how to find clothes, you know? And I'm like reading this as like, you know, quote unquote, ‘a little girl,’ but I'm just kinda. “
This
is what I want. Like, I want to be a guy with like a really beautiful home.” [Laughs]
Liv:
I love that! I want to know what to do with cologne. I want to have good taste in like patent shirts-
Ally:
Truly! Like colognes, like all of that kind of stuff is still like really important to me. It feels very like fancy boy or something like, you know-
Liv:
I know
exactly
what you mean, yeah.
Ally:
And at first that was confusing to me because those were definite moments of something, like, calling to me that I was like, “Whoa, I love this. I want to be close to this. I want to be this.” Um, but then I was like, “Wait, I'm gay,” and then I'm finding myself getting like a little bit more Butch, a little bit more like Camo, you know, whatever. And that felt weird. And then now I'm, you know… in the way that we come out of the closet as gay, and then some people will have to come out of another closet as trans… Who knew there were like multiple closets in this house.
Liv:
And the Russian dolls just smaller and smaller!
Ally:
[Laughs] Yeah. So I feel like as being trans now, I’m like, “Oh, right. I want to be that guy. I want to be that fancy guy with the toner.”
Liv:
I want, I want to have cufflinks.
Ally:
Yeah. I want some like heirloom cufflinks or something.
Liv:
Maybe a pocket square.
Ally:
Yeah. I want a Dyson vacuum and I want a Shih Tzu.
[All laugh]
Jasmin:
I think we can make that happen, Ally.
Ally:
Uh, no, I can’t have a Shih Tzu, not in this economy.
Jasmin:
In this economy?!
[All laugh]
Ally:
Too rich for my blood. She'll look down on me.
Jasmin:
I love that. Thank you for sharing that story.
Ally:
Yeah.
Liv:
Gorgeous. Yeah. I love it.
Jasmin:
Now we're going to play a cute little game that I would like to call, “Would You Rather.”
[Segment Music Plays]
Ally:
Ooh.
Jasmin:
I'm your host, Jasmin Savoy Brown.
[Liv laughs]
Jasmin:
Liv, Ally, here we go. Quickly: would you rather be able to see music or hear colors?
Ally:
Hear colors.
Liv:
See music.
Jasmin:
Would you rather wear slightly too small shoes forever, or have a slightly itchy shirt label forever?
Liv:
Too small shoes.
Ally:
Oooh, it’s too small shoes.
Jasmin:
Would you rather lose your wallet once a month or lose your keys once a week. for the rest of your life?
Ally:
Wallet once a month.
Liv:
Keys once a week.
Jasmin:
Ooh, the difference is fascinating.
Liv:
You can make copies of your keys!
Ally:
And there's nothing in my wallet!
[All laugh]
Jasmin:
Would you rather date an astrology gay or a vegan gay?
Liv:
Astrology gay.
Ally:
[Sighs] Ugh… astrology gay.
[All laugh]
Liv:
No shade, no shade.
Jasmin:
Okay. Personally offended.
Ally:
You're both! [Laughs]
Jasmin:
Yeah, as if - [Laughs]
Liv:
What do you mean? The - that Venn Diagram’s a circle.
Jasmin:
I know, this is my Aries, I'm just looking for a fight.
[All laugh]
Jasmin:
Okay. Never have kimchi again or never have kombucha again?
Ally:
Oh, brutal.
Liv:
Never have kombucha again.
Ally:
Never have kombucha again.
Jasmin:
Would you rather win the lottery or abolish the police?
[Liv laughs]
Ally:
Win the lottery, definitely, Yeah.
[All laugh]
Ally:
Win the lottery twice maybe. And then pay the cops more.
[All laugh]
Jasmin:
Yeah, I knew you would say that - I knew you would say that. Pulls out your MAGA hat - anyway, and last but not least, wouldn't you rather date someone who has a tattoo of their ex's name on their neck, or [Laughing] get a second tattoo of your ex’s name on your neck.
Liv:
I feel like this question is not pointed at me.
Ally:
Look, I, listen -
[Jasmin and Liv laugh]
Ally:
My tattoo says ‘Shakira,’ I don't know where you got this info -
Jasmin:
You! Are! Lying!
[Ally Laughs]
Jasmin:
You’re lying! And lastly: Ally Beardsley, what are you going to do this week to advance the homo schedule?
Ally:
Oooooh.
Liv:
The very, very real and meaningful homo schedule of which we are in charge.
Ally:
Yes, the homo schedule. I mean, we're going to do a little grassroots organizing and by that, I mean, jello shots.
[Liv and Jasmin laugh]
Jasmin:
Yess!
Ally:
[Laughs] I think I'm just going to walk around being really hot, yeah, is how I'm going to advance the homo schedule.
Liv:
It is a public service.
Jasmin:
It's already done. So thank you on behalf of all of us.
Ally:
Yeah, definitely.
Liv:
I have for the homo schedule this week, I'm going to keep getting better at cooking so I can sustain myself and all my other gay friends -
Jasmin:
Like me!
Liv:
I'm going to feed us.
Ally:
Great. What's a recipe coming up that you're excited to make?
Liv:
I want to make noodles at home.
Ally:
Oooh.
Liv:
I want to actually get better at doing that from scratch by myself. That's like the, the aim at the moment.
Jasmin:
As in like, make the pasta? Or like make a noodle bowl, but you buy the noodles at the store.
Liv:
No, no, no. Make the noodles itself.
Jasmin:
Whoa. Do you have one of those things that, it goes like this cranky crank, crank, crank…
Liv:
Nah no crank. Just like roll them up, cut them.
Ally:
Do you have a KitchenAid?
Liv:
I have a food processor, but not a KitchenAid.
Ally:
There's like an attachment for the kitchen aid that's like a noodle thing that I've -
Liv:
Oh shit.
Ally:
I've heard rave reviews about, but I mean, that's a pretty steep price point.
Liv:
I do love a gadget.
Ally:
It's like you buy this expensive ass mixer, or like you could just buy a hand crank noodle thing, but -
Liv:
It really does sound like some shit I do, to be honest.
[All laugh]
Liv:
Jasmin, what are you going to do?
Jasmin:
This week I am going to do some more self-care. I'm going to go ride some horses.
Ally:
Yes! You're going to do it!
Jasmin:
And be gay on a horse.
Liv:
[Chanting] Gay on a horse! Cowboy gay!
Jasmin:
[Chanting] Gay on a horse! Homo stuff!
Jasmin and Liv:
[Chanting] Homo stuff!
Jasmin:
We sometimes just ride around chanting that.
Ally:
Would you rather date a vegan gay or a horse gay?
Liv:
Oh, my very first girlfriend was a horse girl. [Jasmin gasps] Yeah.
Jasmin:
Are we fans of her, or are we not?
Liv:
I mean, we were teenagers, it's not, it’s like neither here nor there.
Jasmin:
Okay, great. Great. Or maybe a vegan horse, astrology gay. “I want to date myself.” We'll dissect that next week!
[All laugh]
Jasmin:
Thank you Ally! Thank you so much, Ally.
Ally:
Yeah, thank you for having me.
[Transition music]
Liv:
After every interview, there is still so much more for us to read and learn and talk about.
Jasmin:
So we have citations we want to share with you!
Liv:
First up is
The Philosophy of Ikigai: 3 Examples About Finding Purpose
by Jeffrey Gaines, for Positive Psychology 2021. Ikigai is a Japanese concept that combines the terms Iki, meaning alive or life, and Gai, meaning benefit or worth. When combined these terms mean “that which gives your life worth, meaning or purpose.” This information, and more is available in that article in the show notes.
Jasmin:
And here's another one for ya: “Queer players find more than a game in
Dungeons & Dragons
. They find a safe space.” This is by Isabelle Lichtenstein for
Dicebreaker
. I just want to say, when I read this, you know when you read something and one of your friends has a quote in it and you're like, “Oh, my friend is famous.”:
[Liz laughs]
Jasmin:
Basically, Ally is all over this. And I know they’re famous, but I was like, whoa, they're really famous. So here's a quote by removing expectations. “The ability to be whoever you want becomes ingrained in the foundation of
D&D
, and normalized to such a degree that queer players can feel more comfortable exploring their identities because, well, everyone else is too.” What I really liked about this article, is that it highlights that
D&D
really started as a game for like these straight white guys, as everything starts. And then queer people of course have been participating the entire time.
Liv:
Mmhm.
Jasmin:
And now are becoming more vocal about that participation. I just love that. You can find a link to this and a bunch of other awesome stuff in the episode description.
[End Credits Music]
Jasmin:
This has been The Homo Schedule. I'm Jasmin Savoy Brown, your host, producer, and creator of the show.
Liv:
And I'm Liv Houston, your host and producer.
Jasmin:
The Homo Schedule is produced by Multitude for Netflix. Our lead producer is Eric Silver. Our engineer and editor is Mischa Stanton, and our executive producer is Amanda McLoughlin.
Liv:
Be sure to follow Most, Netflix’s home for LGBTQ+ storytelling on Twitter and Instagram, @Most.
Jasmin:
And the best way to help us keep advancing
The Homo Schedule
is to tell a friend about the show!
Liv:
So post about us on socials or text someone a link to your favorite episode.
Jasmin:
We'll see you next week!
Liv:
This meeting has been adjourned.
[Gavel bang]