How important is male friendship, even if it’s not something talked about for gay men? What are you supposed to do with your friend who is clearly in the wrong? And can Caleb address the incredibly controversial things he’s tweeted? All that and more as Jasmin and Liv talk to Caleb Hearon!
How important is male friendship, even if it’s not something talked about for gay men? What are you supposed to do with your friend who is clearly in the wrong? And can Caleb address the incredibly controversial things he’s tweeted? All that and more as Jasmin and Liv talk to Caleb Hearon!
Citations
- Overcoming American Masculinity to Build a Deep Male Friendship by Julie Beck for The Atlantic
- On being queer and mourning the loss of straight male friendships by Hari Ziyad for The Black Youth Project
- Britney Spears has been freed from her conservatorship!
Bio
Caleb Hearon is a comedian, writer, and actor currently writing for Netflix’s upcoming animated series “Human Resources,” a spinoff of “Big Mouth.” He lived and performed in Chicago for a few years, where his viral character videos attracted attention on Twitter. Caleb lives in Los Angeles now and was recently named one of Variety's 10 Comics to Watch.
Credits
- Hosts: Jasmin Savoy Brown and Liv Hewson
- Producer: Eric Silver
- Co-Producers: Jasmin Savoy Brown and Liv Hewson
- Editor, Engineer & Sound Designer: Mischa Stanton
- Executive Producer: Amanda McLoughlin
- Researcher: Gina Cherelus
- Created by: Jasmin Savoy Brown
- Produced by: Multitude & Netflix
Find Us Online
- Twitter: @Most
- Instagram: @Most
Jasmin: Welcome to the Homo Schedule, where we're corrupting your children into celebrating their wins and being proud of the journey. Hi, I'm Jasmin, Head of HR Department for Cara Delevingne shoe collection.
Liv: And I'm Liv, and I'm just dicking around in the break room.
Jasmin: Let's review the minutes from last weeks of meetings.
Liv:How are you?
Jasmin: I'm great. I'm so great. I feel like this is going to be out of order, but I don't care. I'm in New York, I’m out of hell - also known as Vancouver, Canada. Listen! -
[Liv laughs]
Jasmin: Vancouver is gorgeous, but when you're trapped there and you're not allowed to leave, and you're also a woman of color, not the favorite, not my favorite place and I'm out. And now I'm in New York city, surrounded by hot, beautiful people of all age, shape, color, nationality, language. I'm so happy. Okay - do you do this? I go through this thing when a job is wrapped, where I now have the most money I've had in my account for a while.
Liv:Yeah.
Jasmin: And I am panicked that it's all going to go away. So I don't want to spend any money. It's silly because when I'm broke-broke, I'm like just throwing money around. But when I actually have money, I am so scared to lose any of it.
Liv: No, that makes total sense to me, I understand that.
Jasmin: It's kind of silly because the fear is I'm never going to work again. So what I did was I got myself the cheapest hotel I could find in Manhattan where I wanted to stay. And it was basically a hostel - nothing wrong with that - but it was like a really dirty, gross situation. There was dog food in a pile in the room, -
Liv: What?!
Jasmin: - under the AC it smelled bad, it was like a little moldy and I was there for two nights and one of my friends came just to, like, lay in my bed and talked to me and was like, “what are you doing?”
[Liv laughs]
Jasmin: “You just finished a show. You just get yourself a nice hotel.” I was like, [fake sobbing] “but I can't because what if that's the last job I'll ever-” She's like, “Shut up! Shut up! Go to a nice hotel.” So last night I checked into a nice hotel and now I'm lounging in the king bed and I have a nice view of water and I'm going to go see Waitress tomorrow and -
Liv: Oh my God!
Jasmin: Yeah, very happy. But it's a thing like I, I'm about to announce my first single, we have this podcast about to come out. Our show is about to come out. I'm fine -
[Liv stutters incredulously]
Jasmin: - but not even in the back of my head, at the forefront of my mind, I'm like, well, that's it. Then I'll never work again. The money I have left, I need to make it stretch for the next six years. Like, oh, it's so dumb. What are you, what, what to do? Tell me what to do. [Laughs]
Liv: I don't know, dude. I, I truly get it. And it's so interesting that you mentioned like, oh, in the times where I don't have any money, I'm much more careless about it. And I'm like, yeah, because it's like, well, it's like, wait, Rome is burning. Let's throw a body.
Jasmin: [Laughs] Exactly.
Liv: But when you, when you have like the tiniest bit of security, you're like, well, if it's anything less than this again, then it's, then I'm done and then it's over. And it's so hard. It's so human. But I, ah, man.
Jasmin: But it's silly! It doesn’t make sense.
Liv: You will work again. Like very soon -
Jasmin: Will I though?
Liv: Yeah, you will.
Jasmin: We all know this.
Liv: But it's so easy to tell other people that, because I'm also in the same thing where I'm like, yeah. And then the year is over, and “then what, oh god I don’t know.”
Jasmin: Oh God, and I'm like, “shut up Liv, You're going to be fine. You'll probably be on some huge movie next month.” I don't want to hear it, but I get it. Cause I'm the same. Ha, that's how I am. How are you?
Liv: I am good. I am back in LA after wrapping Yellowjackets and coming back here. And I was saying this to you earlier for a number of like weird reasons, some of which are pandemic related and some of which aren't, I haven't been back in LA since February, 2020.
Jasmin: Insane
Liv: And so for the last, like almost two years now, I've been like, well, I live there, but I haven't like been there, but, um, I held onto renting the apartment I had that whole time, a friend of mine really close friend of mine was living in it. And now I'm back and it's like, oh, this is the apartment of the person I was two years ago. Like… [Laughs]
Jasmin: How does that feel?
Liv: It's so strange. It's like walking around expecting to run into yourself, like expecting to run into a younger version of you.
Jasmin: I love that. Please put that in a poem.
Liv: I think I will. It's been, it's all percolating in my brain, and like my clothes?! I haven't seen my clothes in that time.
Jasmin: Whooaa.
Liv: I've been living out of a suitcase that whole time and I've been dressing like shit. And now I have all my things.
Jasmin: That's not true. You look great. You looked so great at every party we went to in Vancouver.
Liv: Thank you, thank you very much, but it's like, there's something… settled. I was talking to my therapist about this actually, where I'm like, there's something about coming back here that feels like the closing of a loop. Of like, “oh, so that you finished drawing that circle and you're back here and you've unpacked all the suitcases and that's done now and now it's going to be something else.”
Jasmin: Oh, and time for a new circle. Yeah.
Liv: So I'm just kind of like sitting, seeing how it feels in the days before, or like the weeks before that starts, whatever that's going to be.
Jasmin: Wow. It might not even be a circle. Hey, it might be a triangle. It might be an octagon.
Liv: Could be a, could be a rhombus.
Jasmin: It could be… it could be, it’s just a straight line. Well…
[Liv laughs]
Jasmin: Gay line. Could be a gay line.
[Both laugh]
Jasmin: I'm happy for you that you're back in your space.
Liv: Thank you, me too.
Jasmin: Liv, what is on the agenda for today?
Liv: Oh my God. Today we are talking to Caleb Hearon and I'm so excited. Caleb is a comedian, writer, and actor currently writing for Netflix's upcoming animated series, Human Resources, a spin off of Big Mouth. Caleb lives in LA, and was recently named one of Variety's ‘10 Comics to Watch.’
Jasmin: Wow. How do you know Caleb?
Liv: I, uh, before recording this episode I’d never met Caleb, but I've always been a fan. I had seen his front-facing short form comedy videos on the internet and much enjoyed them.
Jasmin: Same. So that's where I fell in love with him, his, uh, POV. “I'm your coworker and I'm telling you about my crazy weekend.” Oh my God. My ex and I would look forward to those videos. I would go to his Twitter and check them all the time. Cause he didn't post them like every Thursday at three, he posted them randomly, which I love and hate, and then we started like responding to each other's stories -
Liv: Fun!
Jasmin: And I’m like, “Will you come be on my podcast?” And he said yes, you guys, so excited. We hope you love this episode. Here is [singsong] Caleb, let's enter it into the record.
[Transition music]
Liv: Hello, Caleb.
Jasmin: Hi!
Caleb: [Laughs] Am I supposed to talk yet?
Liv: Yes. Yes, you can go straight in.
Jasmin: Just talk.
Caleb: Um, well, I - You know, sometimes podcasters do that frustrating little thing that I, which I do on my podcast, where they talk for like five minutes and you just kind of sit there. [Laughs] And you're like, when is my turn?
Liv: The podcasts equivalent of being kept in a green room.
Caleb: Truly that.
Jasmin: No, we're going to keep you nice and safe, taken care of here. And we're going to say our names and pronouns and how we identify. Liv you go first today.
Liv: My name is Liv. My pronouns are they/them, and I'm a non binary lesbian as usual.
Jasmin: I'm Jasmin, my pronouns are she/her and I am queer, and [stiffly] so happy. No, I don’t know why I said it that way.
Caleb: I loved it. I’m Caleb, my pronouns are he/him, and I'm a big fat faggot and it's never going to change, probably.
Liv: Yes.
[Jasmin makes celebratory air horn sounds.]
Caleb: I mean I don't know. I do say probably cause you know, who knows?
Jasmin: Things could change. You know what? I just have to say this about you. You are one of the funniest, warmest, and most righteous people to ever live, and I would commit serious crimes for an opportunity to make out with you.
Caleb: [Laughs] First of all, the opportunity's going to come. Second of all, most righteous I really dug. I really thought that was a fun addition.
Jasmin: Wait, do you not know that you literally made that quote and said you wanted a friend to say it to you at some point.
Caleb: Wait, did I say that!?
Jasmin: You sure did!
[All laugh]
Caleb: I was like, I was like, hell yeah, Jasmin. I love that take!
Liv: I mean, it's all true, obviously.
Jasmin: It is true. But also I just wanted to show you that I’m a great listener.
Caleb: When did I say that?
Jasmin: In your interview with Bustle! You said that exact thing, you said “when greeting me, you know, I want my friends to say this to me.” So I though, I will, because it's all true.
Liv: You made your rider clear in an interview with Bustle.
Caleb: That's really iconic of me, actually. I think Bustle, I think I was supposed to be being earnest in that interview. [Laughs] And I guess, I mean that isn't a bad way to be greeted, but damn, I love that I said that. Hell yeah.
Jasmin: Yeah. [Sarcastically] You've said a lot of things and actually some of them are pretty controversial and actually this is a gotcha interview. So I'm going to read some of the controversial things that you tweeted actually, and I'd like you to address them.
Caleb: Love it.
Jasmin: This is serious. Okay. It's very serious. On August 20th, you tweeted ‘Baja Blast.’ What the fuck was that about?
Liv: What'd you care to explain yourself.
Caleb: Now, if you got, and I know that I'm speaking to a couple of intellectuals here, ‘Baja Blast’ I believe that I was - well folks, there's no really way to spin it. I was in the drive-through at taco bell getting a Baja Blast. Hellooo,what's not clicking?
Jasmin: Okay. Okay. That's fine.
Caleb: Do y'all fuck with Baja blast.
Liv: I don't know what it is.
Jasmin: Oh, you don't - It's very sugary sugary. It's blue, right?
Caleb: Kind of green, aquamarine, kind of - is aquamarine straight up blue or is it greenish?
Liv:It's like blue-green.
Caleb: Seafoam.
Jasmin: Yeah, like algae.
Liv: Yeah. Ooh, yummy, delicious.
Caleb: Oh yeah, yum yum, chemical though. It's all chemicals.
Liv: Okay. Thank God.
Caleb: Yeah, I love that shit.
Jasmin: You said on August 11th: “Fuck sleep. I am strong.” That's just… what is that.
Caleb: [Laughs] So sleep is something that people who are weak, uh, engage in, in order to recharge their battery as it were. I don't need it because I am stronger than most people. Probably even the two of you sleep sometimes. No offense.
Jasmin: Hmm. Hmm. Interesting.
Caleb: But I don't need to do things like I don't need to recharge a battery. I don't need to rest or heal. I can keep going.
Liv: Would you say that you don't need to recharge a battery because you're not a machine?
Caleb: [Inhales] Yeah. Yeah. But I would say also a lot of people are machines. A lot of humans are, are living their lives, like machines. They're going to sleep every night. They're setting on the alarm clock to wake up in the morning. I don't need to do that. I just stay up. I stay ready and I don't have to get.
Jasmin: I see.
Liv:Ok. All right, I'll allow it.
Jasmin: Okay. Well, did you tweet this when you were sleeping? “It would be so funny if we freed Brittany and she immediately endorsed Trump for the next election” [Laughs]
Caleb: [Laughs] People got so mad about this one! It would be - So could you imagine? The catharsis, the feeling that we would all have, the joy that would rush over us, if we freed Brittany and then immediate - I'm talking immediately. I'm talking like, “Breaking news out of Los Angeles” -
Jasmin: Five minutes!
[Liv laughs]
Caleb: Yeah! “Britney Spears has been freed from her conservatorship under Jamie Spears” and then immediately Brittany on Instagram live, “in 2024 we have to keep America great.”
[All laugh]
Caleb: I mean instantly! Whoo, that would be funny. Brittany stans did not like that, they were in my DMs.
Liv: It shocks a laugh out of me. Like I can’t - it's against my will. I can’t help it.
Caleb: And people also, people were in my DMS and mentions a bunch about that one being like, “Um, do you think Britney's actually conservative?” I'm like, no, that's not what I said. I said it wouldn't be funny if - I didn’t say it was likely.
Jasmin: Oh my God, you engaged?
Caleb: No, fuck no, I just was in my head. I respond to these people in my head, which is maybe even more psycho. In my head I'm like, “you fucking loser idiot. You don't even-” and then I don't type anything.
Liv: I do the same shit. I do the exact same thing.I will never actually get involved with it. I will never do it. You cannot make me do it.
Jasmin: That's smart of you guys. I'm a fire sign, so I do fight them.
Liv: I'm a fire sign too, but I went in my head.
Jasmin: But you're like a watery fire sign. You know what I mean? I feel like Sagies are like the watery fire.
[All laugh]
Jasmin: Okay. Two more. Are you ready for this?
Caleb: Ok, ok, yeah yeah yeah.
Jasmin: “I'm sorry to say this, but if Clifford the Big Red Dog came to my town, I'm sorry, but I would gather a posse and kill him. I'm sorry, but it's not right how big he is.”
Caleb: Yeah.
Liv: What would be the correct size for Clifford the Big Red Dog to be?
Caleb: I would say German Shepherd is my absolute ceiling. I don't want to see a dog as big as him.
Liv: You don't want to see a Great Dane.
Caleb: No!
Liv: You don't want to see those ones that look like mops.
Jasmin: A Burmese Mountain Dog, 120 pounds.
Caleb: No, I don't want to be walking through the park and the gazebos destroyed because they took Clifford on a walk, that pisses me off. You're too big. Go home. Honestly, also people got mad about that one. Just kidding. But you, you're trying to cancel me over this. Look, you guys have to be real with yourselves. If it's not just a cute little cartoon, if it's real life and you, real life, saw a dog that big -
Jasmin: Ok, you're right. I would shit myself.
[Liv laughs]
Caleb: I would kill it. You wouldn't gather some people and kill it?
Liv: Um, what does looking at horses do to you?
Caleb: There are no - Liv, do you know how big Clifford is?
Liv: Yeah, but if a German shepherd is the ceiling and Clifford is unimaginable. What's - where are we on horses?
Caleb: German Shepherds is the ceiling that I would accept for Clifford. If they could get him down to German shepherd size, I would leave him alone. Not take him off the list.
Liv: Ok.
Caleb: When I see a horse, I think nothing because they're supposed to be that size.
Jasmin: Well that's not true. You do think something, you tweeted about it. You said “Horses are having kind of a moment.”
Caleb: That’s -
Jasmin: So now we're catching you in a web of lies. You fucking liar.
Caleb: Look look look - “Horses having a moment” is not about my feelings. That was a fact. I'm a culture reporter. Horses were having a big moment for a second there, you guys remember.
Liv: They still are! Kim Petra’s outfit at the Met Gala.
Caleb: Was she horsin’?
Jasmin: Oh, wait. That was - I thought someone photoshopped that to be funny.
Liv: No, no, no, no. There was a horse head on her chest and it was a magnificent.
Jasmin: Oh!
Caleb: Oh, ok. I don't understand the Met Gala. That's not for me. I'm not one of those guys. I don't know what goes on at the Met Gala. I don't understand it. I would just dress normal if I got invited to something.
[All laugh]
Jasmin: Show up in jeans and a t-shirt.
Caleb: I’d be normal about it!
Jasmin: That's fair. You actually, you're more of a country guy. You live in LA with your best friend. You're both comedians. You're both painfully attractive. You sing country songs. Your life is perfect. Can you just tell us how your life got that way?
Caleb: Uh, My life - [Laughs, then singsong] I have no struggles. Um, my life is really fun because - and that is true - I only hang out with people that I like. I do not hang out with people I don't like. If I don't like somebody, even if they're in the little circle of people that, you know, you sometimes have to associate with and someone says, oh, “they're going to drop by,” I go, “no they’re not, or I'm not coming.” I don't do it. I don't spend time with people I don't like at all. And it really is a beautiful way to live.
Jasmin: That's actually incredible. And I'm like trying to get to that place because life is stressful enough. You just, don't do things you don't want to do, don't see people you don't want to see.
Caleb: No! I am the biggest advocate in the world for the, “who all is going to be there?” text. Who all is going to be there, if you can't tell me every person, I don't know if I can come through.
Liv: Jasmin does that as well.
Caleb: Yeah!
Jasmin: I do. I may have one time organized a gathering that then I didn't go to, despite the fact that I organized it. In fact, maybe I do that often. Maybe I do that often?
Liv: Like recently.
Caleb: I love that.
Jasmin: I need, just, I might change my mind on the date. I don't mean I don't love you. It just means I love me and I don't feel like it anymore. And Liv doesn't like that, that annoys Liv.
Liv: It doesn't annoy me. It's just like a fun surprise.
Jasmin: Is it ok?
Liv: Well, it's not, not fun. It doesn't bother me at all.
Jasmin: Okay, good.
Caleb: Oh, I would be super- If any of my friends behaved the way that I behave, I would be so fucking mad. Like I, my behavior is reserved for me. I get to do that kind of stuff. Like I can't stand when people behave the way I do, or when somebody tries to set a boundary with me, I don't like that. That pisses me off. That's so annoying! Now I have to like, remember that and respect it. I'm sick.
Jasmin: Should we dig into that? Or should we just move right along?
[All laugh]
Caleb: This is y’all’s show, you tell me.
Liv: That's true.
Caleb: I'll do whatever you want.
Liv: No, I think that's legitimate. It's good to lean into being in charge of like your own time. It's nice to also let other people be in charge of their own time, but I'm not the boss of anybody.
Caleb: I didn't say they couldn't do it. I just said I would be annoyed. I try to have a relationship with the people in my life that I love, like my close friends, where I just get to say how I feel and they do too. And so if I do something like, for example, I used to throw parties in college and then as soon as I was tired of being at the party, I would go to bed.
Liv: Yeah.
Caleb: Uh, while the party was still going on and my friends would say, “that's so annoying and rude.” And I would say, “thank you for telling me that.” And then I just would do it anyway.
[Jasmin and Liv laugh]
Caleb: I think, I think that, and I think they were right. That is annoying and rude. And I think it's powerful to have relationships where - Look! If you're somebody who thinks that that's annoying and rude and you can't handle me doing it anyway. Well, maybe we're just not, [Laughs] you know, it's okay.
Jasmin: I hear that. I hear that. You're basically saying I have my boundaries. People can take them or leave them. And sometimes my boundaries are annoying. Take me or leave me.
Caleb: Yeah.
Liv: But I'm also like open to hearing about how they affect other people, which is like the other lovely part of that.
Caleb: Would love to hear about it. Don't ever set a boundary with me though.
[All laugh]
Liv: “Don’t ever do it. Do not”
Caleb: It encroaches on me doing what I want to do when people set boundaries. That's the, that's their whole point. So I think that's something that people have to understand also.
Jasmin: Caleb, what is your sign? Yes, I'm a lesbian. I'm asking the question.
Caleb: Yes I’m an - I’m an Aquarius.
Jasmin: That makes sense to me.
Caleb: Does it?!
Jasmin: It does! Because you're, you're fun and you're smart and you're like, you just feel kind of flowy. And that's how I feel about Aquarius is flowy.
[Caleb laughs]
Liv: But like with a very strong sense of self.
Jasmin: And you do what you want.
Caleb: It gives me a lot of pride. I don't know. It's a strange thing to have pride about, it feels kind of like nationalism. Like sometimes someone will be like, “oh, that Aquarius makes so much sense for you,” I’ll go, “Yeah. Yeah!” You know, I get like really I'm like, hell yeah, it does. And I don't know why I have no relationship to that moniker.
Jasmin: Do you know your moon and rising? Yes I'm asking it, okay?
Caleb: I don't remember, but I do know a friend of mine did this once and she told me that they're the same. The big one is Aquarius and the two other ones are the same thing. And she said that causes a very powerful something something, and I was like, yes.
Liv: And that's really all, you need to know it, that it causes a powerful something.
Caleb: Oh yeah. If astrology, anytime someone tells me about astrology, if it feels good and they go, ‘oh, that's so Aquarius.’ And I like it? I go, yes. And then if they go, ‘but you're stubborn.’ I go, ‘no, I don't.’
Liv: “I don’t think so.” [Laughs]
Caleb: That's not true. Thank you though.
Liv: I want to hear about your journey into comedy.
Caleb: Really? I guess I, I started the technical journey into comedy is that I was in undergrad studying sociopolitical communication. I wanted to be a lawyer and I was like, this is not really the vibe at all. And I was not having fun. And I got massively depressed my sophomore year of college, which can happen sometimes. And I started doing improv. Um, and unfortunately was really into it, like in a really like, really into it. Like really.
Liv: My condolences.
Caleb: Like I know like it's like really embarrassing to be like “improv changed my life-”
[All laugh]
Liv: But it does!
Caleb: It does!
Liv: It does change lives and it is magical and beautiful. And we do love improv.
Caleb: It opens your heart up and it- also, I had never performed before. This is my sophomore year of college. I'd never done theater or anything, cause I grew up in the closet in Missouri. So I wasn't going to do theater and like tip my hat to being gay, like, hello.
Liv: Yeah.
Caleb: So yeah, he had never performed and improv is a very freeing way to get into it. And then I started doing standup and characters and stuff and I moved to Chicago for a couple of years. And then.. yeah, I mean, now I'm in LA, but that was kind of the technical journey into like, trying to work in comedy.
Liv: Amazing. I want to tell you that I think about your sketch of ‘talking to a friend who is clearly in the wrong’ easily every other day, to have some more often than that sometimes. It is so funny. You make me laugh so much. And I just, I had to tell you that while we have you on the podcast, cause it's just, it's. it captures something so true that there's, like ties my brain and knots. It kills me.
Caleb: Uh, that means the world. To me, that video is very important to me as well, because when I made that video, I was working at a job that I fucking hated in Chicago. I was an executive assistant for an ad agency, and I like was so annoyed at my job. I decided I was going to go walk around the block and it was like winter in Chicago. So I put on my big coat and like took a walk around the block and I was like, I want to call somebody right now and bitch to them about how much I hate my job. But all of the things that are making me mad at work are my fault.
[All laugh]
Caleb: I was like, I'm going to either have to lie or I'm going to have to call like one of my two friends who will tell me that I'm in the right, even though I'm wrong. And then I basically like, instead of doing that, picked up my phone, standing on the street, I did one take, I didn't like rehearse it or write anything down. I did one take of me pretending to be that person, cause I thought it was the more interesting perspective than being the annoying person on the other end of the call. And then I just threw it on Twitter. And I was only doing Twitter videos at this point cause like two months prior I had screen tested for SNL and gone through the whole process with them in New York and didn't get it, and I was back working my day job and that video blew up and I got like, I don't know, 70,000 followers overnight or something.
Jasmin: Whoa! That's amazing.
Caleb: Yeah. It really changed a lot of things. Which is so dumb and cool and weird.
Liv: Yeah, it's awesome.
Jasmin: Is that how you usually do your videos? Like it just kind of comes to you and you don't really rehearse it and just put them out there.
Caleb: Usually my videos, I, um, I get filled with rage about something and then I am so like, rageful about whatever I'm thinking about that I can't stop thinking about it. And so I'll start thinking of like, what is the joke of it? Like, well, how am I going to get this out of my head? So a lot of times I'll distill it into something much smaller or, you know, I'll find a way to make it actually funny and not angry because anger is not actually that funny. But, you know, I'll be just rageful about something I can, that's usually the only thing that can inspire me to make a video. Cause I don't really like making them that much, to be honest.
Liv: Really?
Caleb: Yeah. It kind of stresses me out.
Jasmin: Oh, that's interesting because they are fucking funny. My favorite one is the series that was the coworker telling another coworker about the crazy weekend they had. That's how I found you.
Caleb: Thank you. That one, that one is the exception to the rule. There was nothing I was really mad about in that story. That was from a real place of joy about office gossip and how special I thought that gossiping with a coworker was and is. And that one, that one took a lot more work. I had to think about where I was going to leave it off. Cause I ended every video on a cliffhanger.
Jasmin: [Laughs]Yeah, which is one of the best parts.
Caleb: Yeah. That one was fun.
Jasmin: Truly got me through the beginning of quarantine. That's when I found those videos. And that's when you moved to LA, right? Like the beginning of quarantine.
Caleb: Yeah. I was probably quarantined in Chicago for two or three months. And I had already decided I was going to move to LA and I was like, well, you know, this probably won't last very long. [Laughs] So I decided to just go ahead and move anyway. And [Singsong] I was wrong about coronavirus. So I moved, I moved to LA. I had been in Chicago for three years to the day and that's when I wanted to move. And so I moved anyway. And I'm glad I did. It's been great. But yeah, I moved, uh, during covid.
Liv: What has the pandemic been if not just us all being wrong about the duration of it over and over and over again.
Jasmin: Oh, I was right, though. I will cling to -
Caleb: Oh, of course you were!
Jasmin: I really was. The first lockdown. They said it's going to be two weeks. And I turned to my partner at the time and said, “Give it two to three years.” Liv: I remember at the beginning Googling, literally in a panic Googling, like, ‘okay, how long do your pandemics usually last?’ And it was like historically two to three years.And I was like, okay, I'll just have that in the back of my mind too much.
Caleb: Yeah.
Liv: I want to come back to, I love that you pointed out that like, um, anger is not by itself that funny. Cause I think like so much of anger is what you do with it. It's a beautiful tool, but not necessarily on its own. But I want to ask, why do the videos stress you out?
Caleb: Um, there's a lot of reasons. I mean, I don't - the internet in general, I do a very good job of keeping a healthy relationship with the internet. I log off a lot, I only post when I want to, I don't monetize my content, even though I could, because I don't want it to become a source of income for me and then my life be dependent on it. But it's a lot of like people commenting on your body. Um, it's a lot of people talking to you about what they think of, how you look and how you sound and whether or not you're funny, which doesn't ultimately matter. When I do it the way I'm doing it now, which is I just put out stuff when I truly think something's funny, and I actually want to share a laugh with people who follow me, that way makes it to where I don't really care about the numbers that much. I don't watch the views. I don't watch who retweeted it. I don't see if you know, this comedian liked it or that person who follows me, ‘oh, they shared it.’ I'm able to keep a pretty healthy distance from all of it. But when I first started doing videos and it was, I got to get this many followers so I can get a writing job and do you -
Liv: Right.
Caleb: You know, that stuff, it makes you obsessive and it makes it become your life. And it's like, yeah, I don't, I don't want to be worried about whether or not I put out a video this week. I just want to like go to dinner with my friends. You know?
Liv: Oh yeah. I think that's really healthy. And it's like the paradox that I keep coming back to with like social media obsessiveness. It’s like the second you hit the numbers that you're obsessively trying to get to you? You won't stop to be happy about it. Like it's not going to satisfy. The edge is not going to end. It's just going to be the next thing after that.
Jasmin: it's like the whole, the job. When I book the job, then I'll have XYZ. When I hit the number, I'll be so happy. It's a lie.
Liv: It does not exist.
Caleb: Right. And I think for myself as a creative, I have to distance myself from the idea that anything will ever be enough and just be like, yeah, this, this work is not going to make me feel whatever it is. Getting views on Twitter or getting laughs at a standup show or booking, uh, a pilot or a movie or whatever, none of it is ever going to be enough. What's enough is I have a lot of fun when I'm hanging out with my friends. I like spending time with my family. I like eating good food. I like, you know, going on road trips, there are things that fill me up and I can't rely on, uh, social media or jobs or money or whatever to do it, because if it does it in the short term, the next time it will have to be more or it'll feel worse. I have to do whatever I can to distance myself from that as much as I can, which I don't think, by the way, is also totally possible.
Liv: That really resonates with me. I've been thinking a lot lately about like how much disengagement from this is actually possible. Like not only for the average person, but then like, for us, particularly like you it's like, well, how much of this do I need to keep for my job? And how much of that do I actually need to keep? And how much of it do I think I do, what is my attachment and where does it come from? You know, light, fluffy lines of thought.
[All laugh]
Caleb: I think also for me, it's like, there's also a healthy version of, people sharing your video is good. It means that people are enjoying it.” And the thing you did, uh, is being well-received people laughing at your joke when you're doing standup is good, because it means you crafted a good joke that spoke to people. That's the point of the art form. Getting booked on jobs is good because it means that you had an interesting read on the role and that they liked you for it. Like there's a certain amount of those things and wanting them that is not bad. It's actually like, ‘oh, that's good. Those are, these are good metrics.’ So I don't think of it as like, I either focus on that or I don't, I don't think it's a dichotomy. I think it's an amount and an intensity. And that is where the healthiness is as being like, “this is always going to be here.You're always going to want a little bit more money for the next job. You're going to want a bigger laugh, et cetera, et cetera.” It's okay for that to be there and also to like, try to just throttle the intensity, you know?
Liv: Yeah, absolutely. And then at the core of it too, it's like, I enjoy making people laugh. Like I enjoy making art. I enjoy like writing or like, as long as you like and are satisfied by the thing itself then you have a good foundation, right?
Caleb: Yeah, and it’s like too - Okay. So, you know, if I logistically need to make more money on the next job. Maybe I can write something really good and make it with my friends. And that can be the next job, or if I need the laughs from the standup show that maybe I should produce a show with my friends and make it with people I like. Like just trying to constantly infuse being realistic about what it is you actually want and need, and then infusing it with as many good people who make you feel good about yourself as possible. I think that, to me feels like the goal.
Liv: That's funny that that drive is kind of where this podcast came from.
Jasmin: Yeah. I want to celebrate Queer people and talk about queer joy and queer success, and just have a space where we can talk and celebrate each other and smile and have fun, and show people that this is what being gay is actually all about.
Liv: And connect with each other, too. And then, you know, be able to share that with other people.
Jasmin: Yeah.
Caleb: I have to stop myself, like at least once a week from posting some real earnest, corny shit on the internet, which - not everyone doesn't have to not do that - I just don't like doing that, but I have the impulse and I like to stop myself as much as possible, but I have to stop myself at least once a week from just tweeting some shit like “I'm so thankful I'm queer. And thank God queer people exist. Life would suck without us. The world would suck without queer people.”
Liv: Amen.
Caleb: Cause I just feel it constantly. I - queer people are so vibrant and like funny and special. And I just feel like when I'm around queer people, I just go, ‘God, thank God for us. Cause this shit without us, I don't know what y'all would be doing.’
Jasmin: Agreed.
Liv: I know it's, it's essential. It feels essential.
Caleb: Yeah, it's essential,
Jasmin: Queer people and women of color. We need those two things to survive.
Caleb: 1000%.
Liv: Absolutely.
Jasmin: I want you to talk about male friendship, because I've read you speaking about how important it is to you. And we don't hear men talking about male friendship enough, so I know that's very open-ended, but take it away.
Caleb: [Singsong] Male Friendship. I, I love male friendship. Well, the reason I talk about it so often is because one of the biggest barriers to me coming out, I always kind of felt like when I came out, even though I am from a very small town in Missouri, I thought ‘my family is gonna be cool.’ I mean, there'd be a couple of people who are weird about it, but they'll get over it. Whatever. I'm not worried about getting disowned or kicked out or any of that stuff. That wasn't what stopped me from coming out. What stopped me from coming out for so long was I had a lot of guy friends and I just thought that I wouldn't have guy friends anymore. Like I thought that I… would only have friendships with other women, and I guess like other gay men, but none of us were out. So I was like, just these other guys who it's very different with.
Liv: Right. It felt like a door closing.
Caleb: Yeah. It felt like, oh, ‘I'm not going to get to,’ like, there are things about male friendships that are not specific to them. Like now I actually have a much broader understanding - thank god - of gender and people and personality types. I was in a very small town in Missouri and so everything was very binary, but actually in my adult life, a lot of the things I value about male friendship I get from my relationships with my Butch lesbian friends and my more masculine non-binary friends. Like there are things in those relationships that I guess sometimes have to do with masculinity and sometimes don't, but it's an interest based thing, but I think, yeah, healthy male friendship is rarely talked about, uh, because so many male friendships are toxic, but I have a lot of male friends who are cis and straight, and I really value their friendship, and I think that it's important that we create spaces for men to like really express themselves and talk about their feelings and like be able to correct in a way that isn't so… Cause I feel like it's gotten to be a really popular thing to be like - for good reason - to be like “fucking straight cis men.” And it's like, yeah, they suck. But also none of them are going to respond to like “these fucking losers,” you know? So we have to be like, ‘Hey, what did you mean when you said that? Oh, you were joking. Well, it wasn't funny,’ you know, like…
Jasmin: Right. And in a safe way.
Caleb: Yes in a safe way, but also in just like a, a way that is based in connection and not exclusion.
Liv: Yes.
Jasmin: Definitely.
Caleb: I don't want to just shit on you. I really actually just want you to do better because I don't want to ever hear you say something that dumb again, it really isn't working for you or anyone else. You know what I mean?
Liv: Yeah. I get so much out of the connections and friendships I have with cit-het dudes in my life. Like it, it is wonderful when everybody feels as though they can like be expressive and open up, and like just hang out. [Laughs]
Caleb: Yeah. And we also, I think there are a lot of times when, even though it is a lot of times jokes, and I love jokes, but like when two men who are not romantically involved are doing like - there's a really popular, I feel like TikTok to, and I'm not on TikTok very often at all. I certainly don't scroll it. I post sometimes. But, uh, there was like a trend being like “when your boyfriend has a boyfriend” and it was just basically making fun of straight male friendships, like -
Liv: Oh god…
Caleb: That kind of shit where I'm like, ‘we can not call straight men who are nice to each other gay as an insult, what is going on?’ [Laughs] Like, stop!
Liv: It's homophobic. And then also it's like, wait, so you want him to not have friends?
Jasmin: Right!
Liv: Like what? What is going on?
Caleb: He can’t hug his friends? What is the perspective?
Liv: But then also it's like, well, mock dudes for that, but then also mock dudes for not being able to express affection in like a regulated way where it's like, ‘oh guys, aren't comfortable with affection,’ but then also ‘haha my boyfriend has a boyfriend.’ It's like, okay, so which is it?
Jasmin: How can he win? What do you want him to do?
Caleb: What you're describing Liv is where there's a big problem that I have with that joke is that from my vantage point and from what I have seen, a lot of the people making the, like ‘my boyfriend has a boyfriend jokes’ are the same people who will, when a guy hurts their feelings, be like, “God, I would give anything to get men in their twenties to just go to therapy.” These are very counter ideas, that you want men to be emotionally intelligent and available and kind and sweet and softer and more gentle. But then when they do that, now they're gay. And as an added layer, being gay is bad.
Liv: Yeah. It's not working out.
Caleb: Right. It's not - the math is not there.
[All laugh]
Caleb: I've crunched the numbers and it's not looking good.
Liv: It does not add up.
Jasmin: Okay. So you found, or you kept those male friendships after you came out.
Caleb: I do still have connections to the guys that I grew up around some of them, but any of the ones that I'm not connected with, uh, is not because I came out. It's because we haven't seen each other in years or because they turned out to be Republicans and they - actually, I don’t think…
Jasmin: We all have those, unfortunately, I have them too.
Caleb: You know? [Laughs] It's like, we - just, uh, in a completely non-toxic way we outgrew those relationships and moved on with our lives. But I have, I have continued to, to make and create male friendships in my life. It's been the opposite of what I thought coming out would be, and that has been nice.
Liv: Sick.
Caleb: [Skater voice] Sick dog.
Jasmin: Lovely. And on behalf of all of us, thank you.
Liv: Thank you.
Caleb: Thank you!
Jasmin: Thank you for coming out. Thank you for being here. We're going to ask you a question and then we're going to play a game.
Caleb: Okay.
Jasmin: So have you seen the musical Fun Home, or are you familiar with it?
Caleb: No.
Liv: So there's a song in the musical Fun Home that is sung by a girl, she’s like preteen doesn't know she's gay yet.
Caleb: [Singing] Defying gravity!
[Jasmin laughs]
Liv: That's exactly it. Um, but she she's with her dad and she sees a butch lesbian in a diner and has this moment of like… recognition with her. Doesn't say anything to her, but it's like, ‘oh, I know you like, this is, excuse me. There’s something…’
Caleb: Same same.
Liv: Exactly. And, um, a question we'd like to ask guests on this podcast is, do you remember ever having a moment like that?
Caleb: I don't know that I knew an openly gay adult until I was 20? But there was, there was definitely a, a similar issue situation where when I was in like 9th or 10th grade, there was another guy that I would hang out with. He was in our friend group and I was like, ‘ah, this guy is gay. There's like, no way around it. I'm like, I'm looking at a gay person’ and we would start hanging out alone. And finally at one point we just, like, truly in the middle of hanging out, just like started hooking up and there were no words really exchanged about it. And it was like, that was the first time that I was like, oh, I was right about this. They obviously saw that in me, as well. This is what's going on with that.
Liv: And like silently recognizing that.
Caleb: Yeah, there was never a moment when we were like, “I like guys and you as well.” It was just like, it just kind of happened. And I think that was the first time that I really felt like- I mean, it's layered, there's so much stuff going on there and so much shame and secrecy and weirdness around that - but I think at the core of it, that was the first time that I felt like queerness is etheral and queerness is so much more than a sexuality. Queerness is like a vibe and an energy and a shade. And like, it just, it's so much more than who you have sex with. It's so much about like what your being in the universe is. And that felt like that, where I was like, ‘we both just know that.’ And it was more obvious for him cause you know, he was pretty gay. I was a little, I was a little more, um, no, I'm kidding, I was fully gay as well. Um, but yeah, that was definitely what that was, I think.
Liv: Amazing.
Jasmin: Okay guys, we're going to play a game.
Caleb: Ok.
Jasmin: It's called ‘How Gay Is It’?
[Segment Music]
[Caleb laughs]
Jasmin: I'm going to say something and you're going to give me an exact percentage for how gay it is. Here we go, Caleb, for you: Grace Kuhlenschmidt in a flannel pajama set.
Caleb: 100%.
Jasmin: Okay. Caleb, TikTok trends.
Caleb: 0%
Jasmin: Liv, Cara Delevigne joining the secret service.
Liv: 75.
Jasmin: Picking your nose.
Caleb: Oh, oh, oh, 50.
Liv: 30.
Jasmin: Dinosaur socks.
Liv: 60
Caleb: Mm, 15.
Jasmin: Okay. Caleb, Oatly.
Caleb: Honestly, 90 unfortunately.
Jasmin: Long walks and Birkenstocks.
Liv: Oh god. 87.
Jasmin: [Laughs] Playing spin the bottle for the first time at the age of 27. No, that's not oddly specific.
[Liv laughs]
Caleb: 30.
Liv: 64.
Jasmin: Okay. Caleb, the musical Hamilton.
Caleb: 5.
Jasmin: Also Caleb, journaling by the fire in a corduroy sweater.
Caleb: At least 87.
Jasmin: Liv, thigh high boots.
Liv: 46.
Jasmin: Liv, opening a jar of pickles while wearing a wife beater.
Liv: Ooh, 58.
Jasmin: Both of you marrying your platonic best friend as a political statement.
Liv: 100.
Caleb: 275.
[All laugh]
Jasmin: Caleb for you: Caleb Hearon.
Caleb: 99.9.
Jasmin: And both of you, the most important one: How gay is it to abolish the police?
Liv: Ooh.
Caleb: 95.
Liv: Yeah, yeah, 89.
Jasmin: Okay, now I'm scared that now no straight people are going to want to abolish the police.
[All laugh]
Jasmin: Okay, one last question for everybody: What are you going to do this week to further the homo schedule?
Caleb: Oh, I'm going to continue letting this guy that I've been talking to, um, string me along.
[All laugh]
Caleb: I'm going to continue letting him take seven days to respond to my text and then me responding in less than a minute.
[Jasmin laughs]
Liv: You are so brave!
Caleb: Yeah, I am. And I'm not going to feel any shame about it. I'm triple texting. I'm texting back right away.
Jasmin: [Singing Aquarius from Hair] Aquarius.
Liv: Um, I am going to dress up this weekend and it is going to be killer.
Caleb: So good.
Jasmin: Oh, I love. I am going to - I'm going to exercise every day, this week.
Caleb: So gay.
Jasmin: I know, how homo of me.
Liv: We love.
Jasmin: Caleb, thank you for doing this podcast.
Liv: Thank you!
Caleb: Yeah, thank you all for having me. This was gorgeous, brilliant.
Jasmin: Not as gorgeous as you, mwah. [Kiss]
[Transition music]
Jasmin: Wow. After every interview, there is still so much more for us to read and learn and talk about.
Liv: So we have citations we want to share with you!
Jasmin: So during the episode, Caleb was discussing the importance of male friendship, not just in the LGBTQ plus community, but for cis-gendered heterosexual men as well. And how shaming cis-het for embracing that friendship is homophobic. So here's an article that I read that I really like. It's called “Overcoming American masculinity to build a deep male friendship,” it's by Julie Beck for the Atlantic. Here's a quote: “It is important to have somebody to witness who we are and our life. Someone who is honest, is critical, and can push back when necessary and support when necessary. Abhi is that for me.” The article will be in the show notes. And I just want to say, as a cis queer woman, I fucking loved this article. I related to so much about it because it's talking about a friendship between two people who moved to a place that was unfamiliar and created a deep bond and how that bond will last and shift when their relationship moves from being in the same place to being long distance. And as a traveling, moving-about actor I have many long distance friendships and this article is beautiful.
Liv: We touched on social media a little bit in the episode and so I want to talk about these two links that capture like different aspects of how, um, I've been thinking about social media, and I think they're both really relevant. So, first one, “Facebook knows Instagram is toxic for Teen Girls, Company Documents Show.” It's by Georgia Wells, Jeff Horwitz, and Deepa Seetharaman for the Wall Street Journal published in 2021. It's an investigative piece. Here’s a quote from it: “32% of teen girls said that when they felt bad about their bodies, Instagram made them feel worse.” What I think this article touches on that's really important is that this is something that social media companies know and understand about how their business model works and continue to profit from anyway, which is something that we need to keep in mind when we use these apps. And then on the other hand, we have this to think about and this to feel in our lives, which this article talks about. It's called “Social media gives support to LGBTQ youth when in-person communities are lacking” by Linda Charmaraman for the Conversation, also published in 2021. It’s a study. So a quote from this one: “While social media is not without its dangers, it can often serve as a tool for LGBTQ youth to build stronger connections to both their local and virtual communities.” And I just think that both of these things are true at once. And it's so important for us as individuals and as a community to like, really actively think about how we use social media and, um, and decide what our relationship is going to be with it on our own terms.
Jasmin: Yeah. Dualities, holding, holding both.
Liv: Yeah.
Jasmin: And one last note, in our episode we talked about Brittany Spears. I am pleased to say, in the time since we’ve recorded that episode, as of now Brittany has been freed from her conservatorship! If there’s any more news we will include recent articles, et cetera, in the show notes, but I don’t think there will bemore news, that’s pretty damn good news.
Liv: Brittany is free!
Jasmin: And I’m happy to say she did not endorse Trump for the next election. [Laughs]
Liv: We love you Brittany. Go forth and do what you will. As long as it’s not that!
Jasmin: Unless it’s that. [Laugs]
Jasmin: This has been The Homo Schedule. I'm Jasmin Savoy Brown, your host, producer, and creator of the show.
Liv: And I'm Liv Hewson, your host and producer.
Jasmin: The Homo Schedule is produced by Multitude for Netflix. Our lead producer is Eric Silver, our engineer and editor is Mischa Stanton, and our executive producer is Amanda McLoughlin.
Liv: Be sure to follow Most, Netflix’s home for LGBTQ+ storytelling on Twitter and Instagram, @Most.
Jasmin: And the best way to help us keep advancing The Homo Schedule is to tell a friend about the show!
Liv: So post about us on socials or text someone a link to your favorite episode.
Jasmin: We'll see you next week!
Liv: This meeting has been adjourned.
[Gavel bang]